‘No Guide for This’ Episode 6: Finding Your Rhythm in Motherhood

Grammy-winning singer-songwriter Melanie Fiona is busy-busy. But she wouldn’t have it any other way during this season in her life: She has a new album, she’s getting ready to go on tour again—and amidst her successful career, she’s a mom who’s teaching kindness to her kids Cameron, 8, and Kaia, 3.

In this candid conversation with No Guide for This hosts Jen Hayes Lee and Sasha Smith, Melanie opens up about feeling isolated postpartum with Cameron and how that led her to find a community of women through her podcast The Mama’s Den, what really happened when she worked with Drake, how she balances everything (hint: there’s a dry-erase board involved) and how she keeps the love going with husband Jared Cotter (more date nights please!).

Keep scrolling to watch the vodcast episode with Melanie! You can also listen to the full audio podcast on Spotify and Apple Music.

Meet Our Guest

Melanie Fiona is a Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter known for her soulful powerhouse vocals and genre-blending sound that feels both nostalgic and fresh. Born to Guyanese parents and raised in Toronto, she made a lasting impact with her debut album The Bridge, featuring hits like the platinum-certified “It Kills Me.” Her sophomore album, The MF Life, topped the Billboard R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, boasting collaborations with Drake, John Legend, and J. Cole. She has worked with icons like Cee Lo Green, The Roots, and Stephen Marley. Beyond music, Melanie is a devoted mother, creative entrepreneur, and co-host of The Mama’s Den podcast, advocating for inspiration at the intersection of music, motherhood, and wellness. In October 2024, she released two new singles, “Say Yes” and “I Choose You,” ahead of her highly anticipated EP Say Yes, set for release in early 2025.

Episode Transcript

Jen: Hey everyone, I’m Jen.
Sasha: And I’m Sasha. You’re listening to No Guide for This, a Bump-produced podcast. We’re basically going to be talking about all things parenting and adulting, but adulting with kids.
Jen: Today’s episode is extra special because I have my girl Melanie Fiona in the building. Thank you for being here. I am so happy. So Melanie, for those who don’t know who you are, is a Grammy-winning artist. She is a mother of two. She is a host of the five-star rated podcast The Mama’s Den, which I’m obsessed with, by the way. And amongst other things, she is a creative soul and we are so excited to just get into this conversation.
Sasha: Let’s go. Before we ask some deep questions, we like to start with a segment called Can’t Make This Up. It’s basically what we see on social, what’s trending, maybe some conversational stuff that we can bring up. What are these parents doing, what are they not doing? But we wanted to start with something I saw on TikTok from Mike The Situation from Jersey Shore, he’s now a dad of three. So he basically gifted his son a Transformer toy, and it was a very lavish gift. It’s a very tech-savvy gift. I want to ask you about your gift-giving habits to your children. Are you a lavish gift-giver or are you a mom that just prefers giving experiences instead?
Melanie: I feel like I’m both. I had one child for six years, so when you have one child for six years, it’s really easy to spoil them. You want to give them everything. You want to do everything. Now I have two children. My second, she doesn’t get anything. She doesn’t need anything. I’m like, she doesn’t need anything. My son had a Hot Wheels room. He had a Hot Wheels city we created. She still did all that. She has a toddler bed and a kitchen set. That’s what she likes. It’s really interesting just to see how different people show their love. I think for us, experiences are really big. And our son knows myself and my husband. We’re both in music and in entertainment and we travel a lot. So we definitely think about those experiences and he’s like, ‘Hey, could we go?’ It sounds crazy, but he wants to go on staycations. He doesn’t know the terminology. He just thinks that the greatest thing ever is watching a movie in a hotel. He just thinks that that is the coolest thing to be somewhere else watching TV and eating food. So living in California, we can take little trips, we can go to the Bay, we can go to San Diego, Palm Springs. So I think for me, experiences are really, really important. Those are the things that matter at this point.
Jen: I couldn’t agree more. And so Melanie, what you might not know is that Sasha does not yet have kids, and I am a mom of three, and I have to co-sign that on the experiences over gifts because how excited are the kids when they just get a box?
Melanie: Well, I mean, if you think about it, at a certain age when the kids are small, you wrap these things up and they look at the toy and then they go back to the wrapping paper. They’re like, oh, this crunches. This makes noise. I think that we as parents want to feel like we’ve done this exceptional job of rising to the occasion of either breaking curses or cycles that we didn’t get to experience where we want our children to experience something different. And sometimes we do that through gifts and special items. I think everything is instant gratification right now. They don’t even have to watch commercials for their show to come back on. It’s just instant, instant, instant. And so I’m really big on having my children understand gratitude for what they have and also paying it forward. So we’re not just going to hoard things when we are done with things. We will donate them. We’re spoiled, even as adults. We have Amazon, our stuff comes the next day. So I think it’s really important that we teach that to our children. The gift of waiting, the gift of patience, the gift of gratitude, earning things, working hard for things. Even if you have the means, there is always a lesson in there that teaches your children great morals and for them to be a good person. So it doesn’t even matter if you’re super wealthy and you can afford to buy this lavish gift. Do your children understand gratitude? Do your children understand, wow, my parents work hard for this?
Jen: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Totally. The sense of entitlement that kids have even at a young age is it’s something that we have to really keep our eyes out for. So the next thing that we like to just kind of warm up with is assumptions. Because as you know, before you have kids, you have assumptions about what parenthood or motherhood looks like. And the reality is often different from the perception. So what were some of the assumptions that you held about what motherhood might look like?
Melanie: Oh my gosh. Well, I’ll say this. I always take it back to pregnancy and labor because that to me was the first ripping the veil off of life as I just thought that was going to be the easiest thing. I’m like, I’m a woman. I’m going to go in the woods and have a baby if I want to. It’s going to be fine. And I’m going to look cute. So yeah, I put on 80 pounds. I developed preeclampsia during my labor. I had to have an emergency C-section. I was huge, uncomfortable. I mean, the drastic shift of what motherhood started for me, it really does begin from the moment you have a life growing inside of you, you’re already caring for someone else. Every decision you’re making is for someone else. And so the mental switch for me was just like overnight body change, mental change, physical change, professional change. Everything was happening at once. It was a lot. And then you have this baby, and you realize there’s no guide for this. Literally. You are figuring it out every single day for what works for that day. You can heed all the advice of the people who have come to you and said, oh, make sure you do this or make sure you do that. When I had my son, the first, it was 2016, I didn’t have any friends that were having babies at the same time. So I really felt isolated trying to figure out how to do this thing. And we lived separate from all of our family. We didn’t have help, had to figure it out every day. I had to learn to trust. I had to learn to ask for help.
Sasha: That makes me feel so much better. Because even from the pregnancy part, from the minute that you find out you’re pregnant all the way to having the child, you don’t realize there’s no guide for this. It’s okay. Your journey is going to be totally different from somebody else’s.
Jen: And I feel like you almost have to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
Melanie: That’s the part. When people are like, oh, it gets easier. No, it doesn’t get easier. It just gets different. And you acquire new skills and you have to evolve and you have to change as a parent. I think that that’s one of the things that I’m learning now, having two children, one who’s almost 9 and one who’s 3, is that I have to be two different parents to each of these children because they are two individual people. You’re not just, oh, I’m a mom, so I know how to be a mom to everyone. No, I have to be a mom very differently to my daughter than I do to my son. And I’m learning that. And then I also have to be myself and a wife and a creative and an entrepreneur. And that is a lot of brainpower. And I think that that’s the thing that people don’t talk about a lot. That mental load is crazy.
Jen: I mean, you literally hit it on the head. That’s what I was thinking. Mental load. And that’s one of those things they say that women think wide and about several things at one time, whereas men might be a little bit more linear. But I think that is what is part of our magic 100 percent, that we can literally mentally figure out all those different dimensions at the same time. But it is a lot.
Melanie: It’s a lot. It’s exhausting. I’m sure you’ve seen these things where you go to the doctor’s office and you go to fill out the paperwork, and it’s the mom that knows how much the kid weighs, how tall they are, all the things. And the dads are like, I’ll come for support. But most dads don’t really know that information. Moms are generally keeping those tabs. And that’s not to take anything away from dads because dads provide a different set of skills. But God bless the women because the way that we are designed to create life, to manage life, to empower, to evolve, to encourage it is our magic. But it’s a lot on women. And so I’m very much in a season right now where I am so rooting for women, and I’m looking at men now and I’m like, you need to show up for women. And the studies have shown the greatest success rate for children is when a mother is happy and cared for and well taken care of. So let’s all play our part. We have data, facts, numbers, Google, we have doctors, we have statistics. It’s not 1950 anymore. Let’s support the women.
Jen: I say that all the time. And here’s the thing too that I think about a lot. So women since the beginning of time have been doing all of those things that you mentioned, but now we’re also supporting households. We’re paying the bills. So it’s sort of like we’re just adding to the plate.
Melanie: Right? And I think most people, they kind of like to use it against women, like you can’t have it both ways. And it’s like, wait a second. It’s not about choosing both ways. I want to show up. I want to be a partner. I want to contribute. I actually want my children to see me pursuing my goals. That’s actually really important. What is really important is women feel safe and they feel cared for and they feel nurtured. Women are nurturers. This is what we do. But there are ways in which that can be reciprocated and that comes from our children, and we can teach our children how to do that. Not that it’s their responsibility, but it’s our job to let them know, Hey, it’s not all about you. Read the room like, hey, you see mom’s doing something. I can’t get to that right now.
Jen: I mean my 10-year-old, he will get me water. He knows. He knows when it’s time to do the things that are at his age level that he can do to support mom.
Melanie: That’s good parenting. And the kids, if there’s a partner in the home, a father or a husband, they take those cues from your partners as well. So I’m a big, big advocate for the partners showing up together. You are ultimately chosen to be together if you are married and you’re raising children together. And also, even if you’re not, you’re co-parenting, let’s be on the same accord about how we can respect one another’s needs. So we show up to be the best people for these little people that are watching us. And then, you want to look at the person that’s next to you and be like, I really love this life we build together. Or you look at that person and you’d be like, I don’t like you anymore, because we didn’t take care of one another. And that resentment builds. And so I’m really, really big on the partnership aspect of parenting, whether you’re co-parenting or you’re in a marriage.
Jen: It is everything. Melanie, I want to take you back to the beginning a little bit. Because you and I met, and I don’t know if you remember this, but we met in a conference room at Hearst 10-plus years ago. I remember this vividly. I was a mid-level manager and we were listening to different artists come in, you came and just sang a cappella in a conference room, and your voice blew me away.
Melanie: Oh, wow.
Jen: I mean, absolutely blew me away. I never forgot it. And in my head in that moment, I was like, at some point, I’ve got to work with this woman. And in your early days, I mean, I know you were raised in Toronto, Guyanese parents, take me back there a little bit. What were the very early days of you sort of coming onto the scene?
Melanie: It is interesting because I’m a child of immigrants. I’m first-generation Canadian, the only, my brother was even born in Guyana, so it’s just me and some of my younger cousins. I definitely grew up in a family that was very hardworking. I watched my parents evolve and change and pivot at many times of their lives. Be entrepreneurs, work for corporate, take chances on themselves, start over. But very much based in education. So I always knew that I had a gift of singing, but I never understood the possibility of making a career of it for myself, especially being in Toronto at that time. There was no Justin Bieber, no big music scene. Everybody who was developing something in music had to leave Canada to go make that happen. And so I didn’t know the first way that was going to happen for me. And so I met this guy who was a rapper, and he was like, Hey, you want to sing on this hook for me? And I was like, yeah, sure. I remember this looking back on it now, the song was completely inappropriate. It was a very underground thing. It wasn’t anybody that was, wait was this is a rapper that we know? No, no, no. Okay, so we’ll get to that story. So yeah, I was introduced from this artist to a studio, and they wanted to make a girl group. I had never seen myself being in a girl group. I had always thought, I’ve never sung with people. I’d only sang by myself, but I thought, Hey, this might be a great way to get into the music industry. It was a great way to get into the music industry. It wasn’t a great experience, but I learned a lot. And that makes it a great experience, to be honest. And it was a stepping stone that just kind of led me in the direction of what do I want to do? How do I want to do music? What do I want it to look like? And so one opportunity led to another, led to another, led to another. And then eventually I met my manager at that time who was based in the States. And then here’s my opportunity to go to the States. And so I started going to the States and working with different producers and finding out where my sound was and who my sound was with. And it was a really interesting journey.
Jen: I want to ask about Drake because it’s like this folklore story, Mel, that you notoriously kicked Drake out of a group.
Melanie: Is that true? The way the ego works is really, it’s really an interesting thing, but no, so what happened was is that along the journey, I was introduced to Drake who was on Degrassi and another vocalist and a musician. And they had all known each other. I had kind of met them and we started this collective called The Renaissance. And so in The Renaissance, we were just gigging and trying out, I was performing some of the songs I was demoing in the States. Aubrey, or Drake, he was writing rhymes for the first time. He was rapping, but he was still more of an actor. And he was very young. He was younger than all of us. So we found ourselves in this really cool collective of artistry in the city. And we started performing locally like little supper clubs, and nobody knew who we were. I can imagine the scene would’ve been really small too. It was really just more about building our chops as individual artists. And so what ended up happening was my team at the time was like, Hey, we have these relationships in the States. Everybody here is super talented. Let’s create a collective and take this to the States and start doing some showcases and stuff like that. Long and short of the story is young Drake was extremely talented. He was so talented, but I mean young and not sure of where he wanted to be in music at that time. He was just starting and television was his thing. And so there was, I think at that time, a lack of focus and commitment to what we were trying to build. And so it’s not that we went on without him. We all just kind of left and went, did our own separate things. And it’s all love. There was never anything. I know there’s some interview where he was out talking, they kicked me out the group. It’s funny. We also had a conversation after that and he was like, you know what? That’s my bad. I should have never said those things. So it’s all a lesson. And I feel so blessed that I was able to meet a group of people from my city who would eventually, we would all go on to do extraordinary things.
Sasha: Yeah, that’s your story. That’s your journey. And everyone’s going to have their own journey. Like you said, you learn things in the mistakes. You learn things in the new opportunities. So everyone has their own journey.
Melanie: We were kids. And it’s such a blessing to look back and look at the growing pains of all of those things and then see each other out in the world or online and be like, yo. It’s a long time ago, but it’s still such an important, pivotal time of our lives.
Jen: And life is long, and you were kids and now you have kids, you still have a whole half-plus life to live. I call it Act 2. But you are an artist, truly a creative, and it’s in your soul. And I’m kind of curious, when did you feel like you had made it in the music biz? You’ve collaborated with so many incredible artists, from CeeLo to John Legend. I mean, you’ve had such an incredible career.
Melanie: Thank you. It’s interesting making it, that’s a tough question. I still don’t feel like I’ve made it. I’m still making things made. It feels, I think for me, the definition is impact—when you’ve made impact, where people feel your impact. And so yes, Grammys are lovely. Yes, collaborations are wonderful. But I think impact is when somebody comes up to you and says, you changed my life, or this song is the memory that I have associated to my “dot dot dot.” And so, even though I’m still making things and I’m getting ready to put out a new project and I’m getting ready to go on tour again, and it feels like a whole new season of life again for me, because it’s been so long since I’ve put out a project. But making it is, it’s the success when people respect what you do. And so when people see me now, even though it’s been such a long time since I put out a project, they’re like, where’s the new music? They’re still asking. They still are interested in what I’m doing. They’re still with me on the journey of not just being an artist, but being a mother and being a human being.
Jen: I think that’s what really makes people gravitate to you. And I know Sasha and I want to know more about this second act and the new music. What’s going on there?
Melanie: Yes, yes, yes. As I say, yes. So the project is called “Say Yes.” It’s an EP, which is a short album for people who don’t know. And it’s just six songs. These songs I think are really reflective of who I have become and who I am in love. I’ve made a very successful career for myself off of devastating heartbreak ballads and big vocals. And Whitney Houston is clearly my muse. I obsessed growing up, listening to her. She was who taught me about singing and what it was to feel something when you sing. But this project for me, it’s a passion project. I collaborated with some of my favorite artists. It’s just so many great musicians and songwriters from Toronto, Akil Henry, people that I consider homies and friends. You want to create some things and the pressure be off of living up to a version of myself that I once was. I’ve already done “The MF Life” and “The Bridge.” Those are my first two projects. So now I want to be Melanie Fiona, the mother, the artist, the wife, the human being, the advocate, the empath, the healer. And so Say Yes is a song on the album, but also a mantra of life. And I want people to understand that that is a huge part of everything that I do. The messaging, the affirmations, the designing your life the way you want to design it. So every wonderful and extraordinary thing that I’ve ever done in my life has come from saying yes. Now, we had to see a lot of nos along the way. We’re not going to take anything away from no, but saying yes is a way of life, allowing yourself, giving yourself permission to be the greatest fullest version of yourself, to find the love that you feel that you deserve. So I am living by this now, overcoming fear, allowing myself to keep going, to push myself, to continue to make it and make things.
Jen: The hairs on my arms are standing up. I feel like you’re speaking to me and so many other women, and also frankly, the subset of moms who feel like they have given up a lot or there have been tradeoffs. It doesn’t mean that you won’t come back to yourself or you won’t be able to pursue the things that you want, but it takes a lot of intention to get back to that place.
Melanie: I love that you said intention. Really what it takes is it’s very easy to just be passive and allow life to happen to you, but it takes intention to make things happen.
Jen: Ooh, I’m very excited about this next phase. And so while putting out new music, I mean, there are two tiny humans that, well, not so tiny, because Cam, your son is not a tiny human. Melanie: He is eight going on nine, and he is almost as tall as me. We wear the same shoe size. He’s taken all my sneakers.
Jen: Oh my goodness.
Melanie: And I’m actually buying him nice sneakers so that I can take them back when he outgrows them in six months. I think that’s a good value. It is, right? It’s a good investment.
Jen: But speaking of that, so whilst doing all this, you were still on your motherhood journey and making and raising and doing all the things. So what is it like balancing, I’ll do air quote, “balancing” all of that?
Melanie: Well, I am learning what my definition of balance is now with two children versus one, again, being in the thick of creating music, putting it out, going on tour. That’s happening. And I do, if I’m being honest, have some anxiety about it because this is the first time I’m going to be away from my kids for a longer amount of time than normal. And so even though I’ve worked well through dispelling mom guilt that I think I used to carry, I very much am being intentional about honoring myself while honoring my children and doing the best that I can every day. And so that’s what balance feels like to me. It’s doing the best you can every day. Sometimes it’s 70-30 in one area or the other. And some days I’m at full 100, and some days I’m at 10 and someone better do the other 90. And so I am working on encouraging my children to understand that you just got to do the best that you can. Even today, I was gone for a whole week and I just came back and my daughter was like, where are you going? And I said, I got to go to work. And she says, I miss you. And right then and there, I was like, oh…you question everything. I was like, I miss you too, baby, but I will be back later this afternoon. And she was like, okay. And so even though there are those heartbreak moments that are going on inside for both of you, you also have to let them know that we also manage our emotions and we do what we got to do, and we come back together at the end of the day. I think too, for my daughter, I love her seeing me be me, encouraging her to feel like she can be her as well. And that is really an important thing that I am hyper-focused on in this season of my life and my act two, I keep thinking about how act one of life has felt very much like this uphill climb. And then you get to this top of this mountain and then you’re made to feel like, oh, that’s all downhill from here. And I’m like, oh, no, no, fly down. No, I got to the top of my mountain and there’s a rocket launcher up here, and now I’m going up again higher. I’m going to the stars now. And I got my kids with me, and I got my husband, and I’ve got experience and wisdom and confidence and loss of shame and loss of guilt. Now I’m going to go to the stars, and now life just gets better. So that’s what I just keep thinking about in this season of my life is what do you want act two to look like? Who do you want to be for the next 40, 50, 60 years of your life? So I really am focused on the present moment as well, because I think we can obviously romanticize, but all the goals that we have and the things that we want to do, but we just have to get through each day to get there. So that’s how I manage my balance, my expectations, my sanity, because we can feel so overwhelmed with time and speed and demands and expectations, and there’s only today that we know of right now.
Sasha: I like that you talked about grounding and being in the now and not thinking or hyper-focusing too much into the future, and I think that’s where you mentioned something about anxiety. I have a lot of anxiety and I don’t even have kids yet. So that stresses me out thinking of trying to have kids and starting that, I’m in that middle phase now. I’ve done all the things, but I’m ready to be a parent. But it’s that anxiety of like, are you ready for that? Grounding yourself every single day. I really like that you mentioned, us moms we have it all together, but we have anxiety. We’ve got to work through things every single day. Finding the balance.
Jen: One thing that I love about following you, I love that I love you and know you in real life, but we’re on separate coasts and you’re the mom friend in my head, if you were in my neighborhood, I would be wearing you out. But I think it’s important for women who do have kids, they’ve made this transition to see other moms living in the way that I see you living and saying that you’re going to center yourself in this whole experience. And I think part of serving your kids is serving yourself first. You got to put your mask on first so that you can be there for the other people in your home that you are nurturing and bringing up. And I love seeing that on your feed. I know you have MellyBelly Mamas where you created a community, and what inspired you to do that?
Melanie: When I had my son, I felt isolated, as I mentioned earlier on, and I didn’t have any friends around me or even women in the industry that I felt I could look to see myself in them to be like, is this hard? Is it supposed to be hard? Am I supposed to be crying? Am I supposed to feel like my whole world just shifted crumbling? Am I supposed to feel this anxious about everything? Am I supposed to be worried if the baby’s breathing or not? It was a lot. And so I started sharing some really hard truths online. And I think the first thing that really encouraged me was I did this video called “It’s Time to Tell The Truth.” And I didn’t even think I was going to put this out. I put on a camera and I recorded myself speaking out loud about the things that I was feeling six weeks postpartum. And I cried. I cried and cried and cried, and I thought, okay, I was going to edit this thing and maybe put it up. And then I just watched it back and I was like, I need to put this out in its raw form. I need other women and people to see the truth of my experience in motherhood so that they can understand what they maybe haven’t given themselves permission to feel, or nobody is honored or acknowledged that it is this hard. And if it’s not hard for you, girl, I love that for you. But it was very hard for me, the transition. And so that was the thing that started it all for me. And then I wanted to keep continuing to create spaces. And so I had gotten busy with music again. I had actually started the trademark of the company, MellyBelly. And then I kind of sat on it for a little while. And then when I got pregnant with my daughter, I felt like it was the universe bringing me back full-circle. Like, this has to be a part of your mission, creating spaces for mothers and women and telling your truth and being the mom friend that you can call and say, Hey, can I talk to you about this? So in that time, I also started the podcast, and the craziest part is I wasn’t pregnant when I started The Mama’s Den. I was not. I always honor The Mama’s Den and shoutout The Mama’s Den for getting me pregnant. We were four moms that had come together at the time. I only had one, Codie had three. She has twins, and one the same age as Cameron. And then Ashley had three daughters, and Felicia had two children. So I come into the podcast as the solo mama. I’m like, I got one. Y’all let me know. I’m here to support you guys. I’ve got this. Ashley ended up talking to me and being like, don’t you want to have another baby? I was like, no, I think I’m okay. He’s already five. We’re good. I was like, girls, we can borrow one of yours. We can have lots of cousins. And she got pregnant, and I was pregnant two weeks after her. But you know what? I think that it was always in the cards for me to have two children, whether I knew it or not. I truly believe God’s plan is divine. But I think that I was given an opportunity at a second chance of feeling the support I didn’t have the first time around. I was surrounded with community. I was surrounded with women where we were talking through the pandemic being like, are you okay? This is hard. What are you doing with your kids? Who’s in your bubble? How’s your mental health? And that’s really what prompted the beginning of The Mama’s Den. And so then everything kind of came full-circle. And so even right now, MellyBelly and The Mama’s Den, they’re two passion projects that I think are a part of my identity for the rest of my life. When I decide that I don’t want to tour anymore, when I want to be at home with my kids, when I want to do more podcasts or TED Talks or community circles and healing circles, motherhood is my purpose in life. I think that healing and to be a healer in this life is my purpose. And how I do that is through creating spaces in motherhood, creating art and music that heals people, going out and having conversations, being in conversations with other women. And so I feel so grateful to have identified that. When I was 4 years old, I said I wanted to be a singing nurse. And that’s that creative and healing all in one. My 4-year-old self already knew. So that’s it. It’s music, motherhood and wellness. These are the things I’m very, very passionate about. These are the things I want to dedicate the rest of my life to.
Jen: You talked about impact being the symbol or the manifestation of making it and continuing to make it. And that reflection back at you and motherhood as part of your purpose to me is that, it can be one moment where I’m scrolling and I’m like, yeah, I remember us seeing on your feed at night when you were going out, you were feeling good. You had your thigh-high boots. And I was like, yeah, that’s how you live. You have to serve all parts of yourself.
Sasha: I love how motherhood looks so different now versus thank goodness, my mother’s generation. Moms didn’t wear stuff like that and go out and do their thing and have girls’ nights. It was not a thing at all.
Melanie: No, and you know what though? And you see our mothers now of that generation trying to find that in their 60s and later of life and how important it is. And I just think that what happens is, and the beauty about evolution in motherhood, is that we learn and unlearn. I’m excited for how my daughter will be as a woman and as a mother. She will unlearn the things that I should have unlearned. But you take what you need and you take what works for you. If there’s one thing I can say about the evolution of motherhood it’s that there is no reward for self-sacrifice. And I don’t encourage any women to feel that they have to sacrifice themselves. That doesn’t mean sacrifices don’t get made, but sacrificing yourself, depleting your joy, tolerating and accepting things that devalue your magic. Absolutely not. We’re not doing that. And I will never encourage my daughter to do that. So I need to show her me honoring my magic, me being my fullest self. And so that’s why I love this era of motherhood and having sisterhood and friendships and communities and platforms where we can talk about it and say it out loud. Our mothers didn’t have platforms and podcasts. Everything was taboo. They were suffering in silence. They were doing their best. Yes, they were doing the best that they could do to show up and be what felt like the right image or the right partner or the right woman.
Jen: And competing to be what they thought was the right sort of prototype of what a mom should be. And thank God for sisterhood and community. We have found each other and we’re sharing these messages with each other. So I would be remiss if I didn’t bring up your husband and partner in life, Jared. You guys are busy. Y’all are busy-busy.
Melanie: We’re so busy. This is the busiest we’ve ever been simultaneously.
Jen: And you’re both in the music business, and so that is not some easy 9-to-5 punch the clock. And to me, outside looking in, y’all are in a season of, okay, you just got onto that rocket ship that you mentioned. You’re feeling the shakes. It’s the shakes of going into this stratosphere. But I mean, look, you’re hit some new milestones when you get there, but how does partnership work in your household? How do you approach the parenting, the partnership, trying to find time for each other, find time for yourselves?
Melanie: Yeah, it’s much like the balance approach. It changes every day, and you have to just show up and communicate every day. That’s also really hard sometimes. Sometimes we don’t see each other. We might see each other for an hour out of the day in the morning, get the kids, he’s gone, I’m gone. Or I leave town, he leaves town. We’re in different time zones. We’re just checking in. It’s not sitting on the couch and watching shows together. It’s not having date nights. It’s really functional. And I think that that’s okay. I don’t believe in it being a habit, but I believe in there being an acknowledgement that it’s a season. And I often think about Michelle Obama when she was like, oh, I couldn’t stand Barack for 10 years. Because we love them so much, and we honored their love. We idolized their love, but we weren’t there for the moments when she was like, I love you and I don’t like you. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re not going to make it. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you don’t love this person. Or it might mean you’re just experiencing some challenges that you have to now work through in a different way. You have to bring out different tools. You might have to go to therapy. You might have to create schedules where it says, this is our date night, and no exceptions are to be had. I don’t care what’s going on. You tell whoever it is, unless it’s the Grammys or something going on, hey, we have this time for each other. Oftentimes we try to meet each other in different cities when we can, which is fun and makes it different. But we also have to solicit help. So who’s going to come in for the week that we both have to be out of town? Okay. Thank God Auntie, thank God Grandma. You need systems and teams. That’s a lot of scheduling. It’s a lot of organization. It’s functional. It really is. I got a calendar for the fridge that has these dry-erase markers, that’s a hack. This has been a game-changer because we currently have Jared’s sister with us, auntie Jamie. We love her, and she’s so helpful to us. And so it’s important for all of us to be working in a system together. So this is when our son has rehearsal or practice. This is when Kaia has this. This is when we are going to be out of town. This is when I come back in town. And it also helps the kids see it. Everybody’s a part of the team. But I’m very grateful to have a loving partner who loves his children. He works so hard. I’m so proud of him. I’m so proud that we can support each other in the ways that we do. We are different people, but being in the same industry, we kind of understand each other and that’s really helpful. So with us, it’s a season of work right now on all fronts. It’s work for our marriage. It’s work for our family. It’s work for our professional careers. It’s work for our extended family. It’s a work season.
Jen: It’s work. But if it weren’t worth it, and if there weren’t something incredible that is going to come out of this season, then it wouldn’t be happening. So you’re locked in. You got to lock in, hold hands and just power through it. And you said dry-erase markers. In my head, I was like, yeah, because guess what? It might change.
Melanie: It changes. So it’s a lot of communication. It’s a lot of scheduling. More scheduling than I’ve ever done in my whole life, which is like, whoa. But it’s just one bite at a time. Somebody said this to me recently, they were like, the only way to eat an elephant, which sounds crazy, is one bite at a time.
Sasha: If you don’t mind me asking, how did the two of you go from pre-kids before having kids to after? And in that, was it a slow transition? Did you have to consciously tell each other, okay, things are changing and we’re on the same team, or was it hard?
Melanie: Well, it was very interesting because we dated for almost a year, and then we broke up for six months, and then we got back together. And within five months I was pregnant. Yeah. Quick, quick, quick. But also at the same time, we got back together with the intention to build a life together.
Sasha: So you needed that break. What’s that show? There’s a show where they break up on purpose to go, are we really in this?
Melanie: Oh, that’s The Ultimatum. No, there wasn’t an ultimatum. And I was not trying to be dating all these other people. But no, it definitely gave us some space to have intention. It’s like, are we being intentional about our love? Are we being intentional about the life that we want? And if that’s the case, we have to make this commitment. So here we are. And so I remember I got pregnant and I remember I turned to him shortly after and I was like, Hey, so just FYI, we don’t need to get married right now. We’re going to be together, but let’s tackle one thing at a time. We’re raising this child together. The intention was always to become married, but our kid came first. And then ironically, we got married after that—twice.
Sasha: I’m like, wait, what? Twice? How does that happen?
Melanie: Fun story about how Jen and I actually were there. So we were planning a wedding in Italy, and that’s how I met Jen because they were doing features on couples and who were engaged for The Knot. Jen: Melanie and Jared were one of our featured couples.
Melanie: And so we couldn’t get married during the pandemic. Everything was shut down. So we ended up just going down the street and signing papers, and it was the best wedding we could have ever had. And then we had our daughter, and then we decided to have a backyard ceremony at the end of 2023 for just our parents and our closest friends. And our daughter was there. She was the flower girl. Our son was the ring bearer. It was beautiful. Even though we were already married, having the ceremony with all of our loved ones was really, really important. And it was really just a celebration of the journey that it’s been from when we first started in New York. And our kids seeing that celebration of love too is really nice. But there’s always a transition.
Jen: I mean, I transitioned from the time I left New York during the flight to come to LA, my husband and I had a positive shift. A shift on one flight. Let’s shift the energy.
Sasha: I think you need to have that because you can plan all you want. And then things are going to change, especially when you’re a parent. And you need to have that flexibility and that elasticity. So let’s shift into This or That. So we have a segment, Melanie, called This or That. We basically want to ask you about career and motherhood questions, but it’s like rapid fire. So just don’t think too hard. Just whatever the first thing that comes to mind. So we’re going to start with some music questions and I’m going to ask you, do you prefer recording in a studio or performing on stage?
Melanie: Performing on stage. I live for it. I love it. It’s the healer in me. It’s the energy, it’s the feeling. When I see people feel moved, that is my reward.
Sasha: Love that. Alright. Well, still in the theme of music. Win a Grammy or sell out a tour?
Melanie: Sell out a tour.
Sasha: Lyrics first or melody first?
Melanie: Melody first.
Sasha: Okay. I like that. Working solo or collabing?
Melanie: Collabing. I love collaborating.
Jen: Wait, quick interjection, or question, what’s your favorite collab that you’ve done?
Melanie: I mean, I got to throw it to CeeLo. We won the Grammys for that, so I love that collaboration. That was also a really magical collaboration with how it came to be. So that one felt very divine. From the way that we met to the way the music came about, the song came together, and how it just organically became a success. It had its own magic. We didn’t force anything. That song went to number-one with no radio plan. We never shot a music video for it. We love when things like that happen. We’ve only performed it twice together in life, and that just became a fan favorite for everybody.
Sasha: That’s habit of life. It’s like you put all your effort into some things and it just flops or it doesn’t do what you expected. And then things you’re like, I’m going to just do this for fun and it blows up and you’re like, how did I do that?
Melanie: Yeah. Magic.
Sasha: Perfect. And then would you rather see The Mama’s Den adapted into a book or a TV series?
Melanie: A TV series.
Jen: Well, we’re manifesting!
Melanie: First of all, thank you for asking that question because it is totally aligned with the manifestation.
Sasha: Alright, so onto lifestyle, personal chef or personal driver? What makes your life easier. Melanie: Personal chef, please. Someone cook for me. A thousand percent. I am so tired of thinking about what I got to feed myself and everybody else. I hate that question. What are we eating? Well, you tell me what we’re eating. Why is it on me to think about it?
Sasha: Multiple times a day. Every day. Or you’re like, okay, I’m going to cook this again. And then more date nights or more girls’ nights out?
Melanie: Ooh, more date nights. I love my husband so much. And he really is one of my best friends. And I think because I get The Mama’s Den and I get to, you have your girl time. It feels like girl time all the time. But I want more date nights. We’re manifesting those as well. Jen: They’re one of the cutest couples that I’ve seen together. I mean, I have to share this because together you two, it’s like there’s camaraderie. There’s clear admiration that he has for you. It’s oozing out. Y’all are friends. Y’all are homies.
Sasha: I love that. That’s good info. This is the vibe that you want for your relationship. And then are you more of a girl mom or a boy mom? You’ve got one of each.
Melanie: Probably a little both. I think that if you have to choose, I say I feel I was a boy mom, because I never thought I would have a daughter. I had a son, and I was like, if I ever have another kid, it’s definitely going to be a boy. I’m a boy mom. That’s what I do. I’m out there on the basketball court. But also at the same time, I don’t think that that necessarily makes me not a mom for my girl, because I played sports growing up. She wanted to play sports too. So I’m going to be out there with her too. And now I’m a girl mom, and that’s what we do. But I’m not a princessy girl. But it is interesting. I think that those typical stereotype things, they’ve changed a lot over the years.
Sasha: Right. Last one. Toronto, New York City or LA.
Melanie: Oh, it’s Toronto. We’re going all day. I love all three cities for so many different reasons, but Toronto is a magic and a home feeling that I just miss. It’s a different feeling when you go there. And when I go home, I feel like I’m at home. I feel understood. I feel seen. I feel like the most myself. So many memories. Friends, if I had to rank them, it’d be Toronto, New York, LA.
Jen: Wow. So interesting. Is it last because you don’t like it, or is it last because you also really like New York?
Melanie: It’s last because I am definitely an East Coast girl. I love the sunshine. We’re here for work. But I mean, when I go to New York, I feel like myself. And when I go to Toronto, I feel like myself. I feel like I see women who look like me, move like me. It’s the East Coast for me, but Toronto wins because it’s home. And big Caribbean culture, and that’s a huge part of my happiness and my happy place.
Jen: So I’m going to just make a plug. If you ever decide to come back to the East Coast, I will start sending you listings because I want you in my mama’s den.
Melanie: Well, lemme tell you something right now. Jared, every day is trying to move back to New York. He’s a New Yorker. And so he’s always like, he wants to go home.
Jen: Alright, we’re wrapping up and we could talk to you literally all day. But you have that family to get back to. So we have another little segment that we call Parent Truth, and it’s where we try to just elicit the most raw, honest, unfiltered, prompt. So you’re not supposed to think about it too hard. Okay. If motherhood were a song, it would be… Melanie: She works hard for the money… Jen: So you better treat her right? That’s my original thought about women. Treat her. Right. Okay. Thank you very much. And just to close out every question that we ask our guest, we want to know, what is one trait of yours that you hope that you pass down to your kids?
Melanie: Oh, empathy. Empathy. I am a feeler. I am the girl in the bathroom that sees the other girl crying. And I learned her whole life story. And I think it’s really important to have empathy in this world. I think it’s always important to remember that you may not understand someone else’s experience, but that doesn’t mean that you cannot try to be there for them to support them. I am very much, and that doesn’t mean you save everyone. Let’s be clear. But empathy is very, very important to understanding conflict resolution, communication, working to care about how somebody else might be feeling. I want my kids to be kind, empathetic people. There’s a difference between being nice and being kind. I want my kids to be kind. That is for sure.
Jen: Melanie, thank you so much for sharing that with us. And listen, just to bring it full circle, no guide for this. That is absolutely true. But I think by sharing our experiences like this, we can all sort of come to a better understanding of who we are, how we interact with the world and that’s how we calibrate. It’s day by day. And doing the most that we can with this moment, this day, and then we go to sleep, wake up and do it again. This was such a pleasure.
Melanie: Thank you. Thanks for having me. And I’m going to get some listings from you and I’m going to see you on the tour.
Jen: The tour, Mama’s Den the movie, Mama’s Den the book, show, all of it. And we’ll take another Grammy. Why not? Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of No Guide for This. And we will see you next time.